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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:50 pm 
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24db wrote:

well they've done it before (both East Berlin gigs for instance),


all was done sometimes before............ darkness and lasers in the 70s, some kind of videoprojection (east berlin) and lights anyway and allways........... creating something really new isn´t possible imo.

but at the end, the most important thing is the music :) ......... maybe they want to play in my livingroom under candlelight :idea:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:50 pm 
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24db wrote:
epsilon75 wrote:
"The music speaks for itself" :wink:


Only music, but oh...what music! ;)


Positively timeless :wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:55 pm 
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krismopompas wrote:
24db wrote:

well they've done it before (both East Berlin gigs for instance),


all was done sometimes before............ darkness and lasers in the 70s, some kind of videoprojection (east berlin) and lights anyway and allways........... creating something really new isn´t possible imo.

but at the end, the most important thing is the music :) ......... maybe they want to play in my livingroom under candlelight :idea:


couldn't agree more. At its best, TD's music needs nothing else


Last edited by 24db on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:17 pm 
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Damn good points boys....of course the music should speak for itself, and this being TD, it usually does. BUT...a concert is a live presentation of that music, and it has to add something to the music. Otherwise, why do it? In terms of this presentation, I just feel have moved away from using a form of presentation that allies the music.

I don't want to look at musicians on stage when I'm at a TD show. To me, that's a distraction. It's fine with most other bands, but with TD, like Colin so rightly says, the music is everything. They had it so right in the 70's when they used a presentation that placed the music at the forefront of the event. Now I'm not saying TD should revert to type and do what they did in the 70's. As a one-off gimmick like SBE 2005, it's fine. But in the longer term, it'd be like saying they've run out of ideas so they're going to do what they did 25 years ago.

This is what I was originally trying to say...I'd like to see a totally fresh approach to how TD visually present their live shows, prehaps a mixture of old and new, much like some of their musical output. Glass, water, mirrors, prisms, lenses, silhouettes, lighting design, moving objects, organic projections filtered through any of the above, anything can be used to create textured, abstract images that constantly evolve to create an organic environment. Take a look at the way Depeche Mode's last tour was presented and filmed, especially the multi-screen back-drop. One idea was to have live cameras filming the stage, either with all sorts of physical objects and filters to creatively distort and abstract the images, and then fed to the back screens. It looked great. Stuff like this might be too expensive for TD, but there's always a cheaper way of doing stuff like this. Hell, I won an award for an experimental music video, even though it only cost me around a tenner to produce it! It doesn't have to be expensive, just creative.


Last edited by exit81 on Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:28 pm 
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exit81 wrote:
Damn good points boys....of course the music 'should' speak or itself, and this being TD, it usually does. BUT...a concert is a live presentation of that music, and it has to add something to the music. Otherwise, why do it? In terms of this presentation, I just feel have moved away from using a form of presentation that allies the music.

I don't want to look at musicians on stage when I'm at a TD show. To me, that's a distraction. It's fine with most other bands, but with TD, like Colin so rightly says, the music is everything. They had it so right in the 70's when they used a presentation that placed the music at the forefront of the event. Now I'm not saying TD should revert to type and do what they did in the 70's. As a one-off gimmick like SBE 2005, it's fine. But in the longer term, it'd be like saying they've run out of ideas so they're going to do what they did 25 years ago.

This is what I was originally trying to say...I'd like to see a totally fresh approach to how TD visually present their live shows, prehaps a mixture of old and new, much like some of their musical output. Glass, water, mirrors, prisms, lenses, silhouettes, lighting design, moving objects, organic projections filtered through any of the above, anything can be used to create textured, abstract images that constantly evolve to create an organic environment. Take a look at the way Depeche Mode's last tour was presented and filmed, especially the multi-screen back-drop. One idea was to have live cameras filming the stage, either with all sorts of physical objects and filters to creatively distort and abstract the images, and then fed to the back screens. It looked great. Stuff like this might be too expensive for TD, but there's always a cheaper way of doing stuff like this. Hell, I won an award for an experimental music video, even though it only cost me around a tenner to produce it! It doesn't have to be expensive, just creative.




I Have a couple of live Depeche Mode Concerts on DVD and I agree they are damn fine....the cost must have been huge and I don`t really know how TD could do anything near to that on the budget they must have. Creativity can only take you to a certan level and TD probably have reached that level.

I have never really had a problem with this aspect of TD shows. the ones they did in the 90s were very good, and I have been happy with what they are doing now. I think the venues they play obviously is another aspect that might have a say on what they do.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:28 pm 
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exit81 wrote:
Damn good points boys....of course the music 'should' speak or itself, and this being TD, it usually does. BUT...a concert is a live presentation of that music, and it has to add something to the music. Otherwise, why do it? In terms of this presentation, I just feel have moved away from using a form of presentation that allies the music.

I don't want to look at musicians on stage when I'm at a TD show. To me, that's a distraction. It's fine with most other bands, but with TD, like Colin so rightly says, the music is everything. They had it so right in the 70's when they used a presentation that placed the music at the forefront of the event. Now I'm not saying TD should revert to type and do what they did in the 70's. As a one-off gimmick like SBE 2005, it's fine. But in the longer term, it'd be like saying they've run out of ideas so they're going to do what they did 25 years ago.

This is what I was originally trying to say...I'd like to see a totally fresh approach to how TD visually present their live shows, prehaps a mixture of old and new, much like some of their musical output. Glass, water, mirrors, prisms, lenses, silhouettes, lighting design, moving objects, organic projections filtered through any of the above, anything can be used to create textured, abstract images that constantly evolve to create an organic environment. Take a look at the way Depeche Mode's last tour was presented and filmed, especially the multi-screen back-drop. One idea was to have live cameras filming the stage, either with all sorts of physical objects and filters to creatively distort and abstract the images, and then fed to the back screens. It looked great. Stuff like this might be too expensive for TD, but there's always a cheaper way of doing stuff like this. Hell, I won an award for an experimental music video, even though it only cost me around a tenner to produce it! It doesn't have to be expensive, just creative.


So...just something different then Chris? I don't think many fans would argue with that, a progression yes, otherwise they'd be Kraftwerk (which we both like I know) where they only slightly change the show from one year to the next (I loved their 2004 gig...but I wouldn't want to go and see them again?...er...probably ;))

Strangely enough I think this is what TD attempted at the Astoria last time....no inter-linking music, just effects and some new footage of rain, airplanes and wind blown reeds (what a great title for a CD ;)) etc. Not sure it worked fully, but you've got to praise TD for what have done, not just kick them for what you don't like. Afterall, who would have thought that we'd be sitting under the beams of Lasers until quite recently? Far out....where's me flairs man? :)


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:41 pm 
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That was different, can't argue there....and I'd like so see them trying a fresh approach more often. How about an audio/visual project....where the backdrop doesn't merely accompany the music, but dictates it? The music could have been composed specifically for a backdrop that was specially created by a visual artist. Or the music could be improvised on stage as a direct response to changes in pattern, colour, tempo, light temperature, etc. Maybe stuff like that has been done before, but with a different band trying it, in a different environment with different methods of generating the backdrop, the results could be really interesting.

Or even have artists painting or sculpting something live on stage as they are influenced and moved by the music. Kind of like 'The Wall', with something created over time as the music develops. The work of art is projected on the screen as it develops.

Let the ideas flow forth!


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:56 pm 
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exit81 wrote:
That was different, can't argue there....and I'd like so see them trying a fresh approach more often. How about an audio/visual project....where the backdrop doesn't merely accompany the music, but dictates it? The music could have been composed specifically for a backdrop that was specially created by a visual artist. Or the music could be improvised on stage as a direct response to changes in pattern, colour, tempo, light temperature, etc. Maybe stuff like that has been done before, but with a different band trying it, in a different environment with different methods of generating the backdrop, the results could be really interesting.

Or even have artists painting or sculpting something live on stage as they are influenced and moved by the music. Kind of like 'The Wall', with something created over time as the music develops. The work of art is projected on the screen as it develops.

Let the ideas flow forth!


Then more artists should work with TD or offer their experience. Can't help but think that TD's door has never been in danger of being broken down in the rush. .. this may be because that TD's fan demographic are 40 year old blokes, who like prog, beer and with little or no interest in the visual arts (sweeping generalisation), rather than 18-22 year old electronika fans or art students who think TD are cool to work with and see it as an opportunity to get their stuff seen in a bigger context.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:01 am 
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Trust you to come up with a rational argument Andy!! Good points mate. Just to develope the idea further, maybe Bianca could be 'the artist', someone already in tune with TD's music, who wouldn't have vested interests or any other agenda rather than to add a new dimension to the live performance. And then the piece could be raffled after the gig!!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:08 am 
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exit81 wrote:
Trust you to come up with a rational argument Andy!! Good points mate. Just to develope the idea further, maybe Bianca could be 'the artist', someone already in tune with TD's music, who wouldn't have vested interests or any other agenda rather than to add a new dimension to the live performance. And then the piece could be raffled after the gig!!


I think you might have a point there. Obviously Bianca is a big modern art fan (cheers for the museum recommendation Bianca!), well...she's an artist afterall. Perhaps TD's music could trigger other types of creative ideas...as a jumping off point, expanding things in a more concrete or even abstract or surreal direction. Perhaps even showing what influenced Edgar and Bianca over the years?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:12 am 
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Sounds a lot better than showing yet another deep space image!

So there we go....Andy's and Chris's suggestion for future TD live shows....Bianca uses the music as inspiration to create a unique work of art throughout the performance. It is projected on a large screen behind the band in real time. This later forms the CD sleeve when it is released as a live album!


Last edited by exit81 on Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:18 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:17 am 
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exit81 wrote:
Sounds a lot better than showing yet another deep space image!


Well 'Space' is what it's all about really...on a certain level...not just the magnitude of outer-space and our small part in it (we are all cosmic dust afterall)...but also Inner space, and our thought processes and through that the choices we make in you lives and how we channel that into the few years we have between the two constants we have to go through, birth to death. This what many of the influences on TD are about, the most obvious one being Dante

And you thought it was just another Nasa photo? ;)


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:24 am 
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exit81 wrote:
Sounds a lot better than showing yet another deep space image!

So there we go....Andy's and Chris's suggestion for future TD live shows....Bianca uses the music as inspiration to create a unique work of art throughout the performance. It is projected on a large screen behind the band in real time. This later forms the CD sleeve when it is released as a live album!


The art happens in real time and ends up on the cover? nah Faust has done that already...albeit one of the members of the group was naked and was throwing paint onto LP covers during the show ;)

I think part of the 'problem' (and it depends if you see it as problem or a strength) is that Edgar doesn't see TD as an 'art band', he sees it as a rock band therefore doesn't think most of the audience would get it, if they tried to be more arty (read prentious). Not that they think their audience is thick, but more from an wish to make the music 'more immediate'...too communicate with their audience on an emotional level, subtly perhaps, but not leaving the audience thinking they are at an art lecture.


Last edited by 24db on Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:28 am 
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FAQ#23 But without fans or an audience, an artist has nothing to reflect his art off of. Do you sometimes feel you need to put your artistic desires aside and give your fans what they are looking for? Do you feel the need to serve your customers?
Of course you have to respect those people who are following you and spending their hard earned money on concert tickets or buying your records. It would be totally arrogant to ignore such facts and an artist should be very conscious of the way die hard fans often follow, often for a long time. On the other hand, it would be absolutely dishonest to serve fans one serves customers in a supermarket. In my personal belief, it is not the order of a true artist to give people what they want, but rather, it’s to take them on the journey they have always dreamed about without even knowing about an existing map or ways to reach their destination. If you’re just in it for your own ego or just to satisfy the whims of an audience, it’s certain that you won’t have a long lasting career with lots of good and intelligent fans who love to travel the same route you do.
At all concerts within the last years, at which I was present, was much applause and very content audience (and I don't speak about the diehards in the front rows) - why should Edgar change something, to whom shall he listen? If nobody would like Warsaw or Mädchen, then he would not play it for certain. - I think Ian Anderson has played Locomotive Breath in every concert for 35 years because everyone also likes it at the one hundredth time.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:33 am 
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Cyclone wrote:
FAQ#23 But without fans or an audience, an artist has nothing to reflect his art off of. Do you sometimes feel you need to put your artistic desires aside and give your fans what they are looking for? Do you feel the need to serve your customers?
Of course you have to respect those people who are following you and spending their hard earned money on concert tickets or buying your records. It would be totally arrogant to ignore such facts and an artist should be very conscious of the way die hard fans often follow, often for a long time. On the other hand, it would be absolutely dishonest to serve fans one serves customers in a supermarket. In my personal belief, it is not the order of a true artist to give people what they want, but rather, it’s to take them on the journey they have always dreamed about without even knowing about an existing map or ways to reach their destination. If you’re just in it for your own ego or just to satisfy the whims of an audience, it’s certain that you won’t have a long lasting career with lots of good and intelligent fans who love to travel the same route you do.
At all concerts within the last years, at which I was present, was much applause and very content audience (and I don't speak about the diehards in the front rows) - why should Edgar change something, to whom shall he listen? If nobody would like Warsaw or Mädchen, then he would not play it for certain. - I think Ian Anderson has played Locomotive Breath in every concert for 35 years because everyone also likes it at the one hundredth time.


spot on, if TD played and composed music for the whims of their audience the results would be rubbish and total compromise of their artistic vision. This is a discussion, I'm not interested in ever telling Edgar and TD what to do....period. I'm the fan, they are the artists...I try not to confuse the two ;)

However I think Edgar is more open to ideas than is first apparent, and if you don't agree you need to speak to a few people who have worked with him


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